Forum Chrześcijańskie

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Temat: Joktan, ojciec Sarmaty

Według Berossos (nie Barossos):

Barossos nazywa Joktana "Ister":

"Ictan or Ister"

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Whereas the Sarmatae are so called from Sarmates the son of Ister. But Moses calls them Ictan [Joktan] and Asarmauet [Hazarmaveth, Vulgate: Asarmoth, Gen. 10. 26], whom Berosus calls Ister and Sarmates. The Greeks call the latter Sauromatae. Further those who extend over the Riphaean Mountains and the River Boriscus to the Tanais [Don] and the wetlands of Maeotis and the Tauric Chersonessus, as appears in Ptolemy’s eighth tablet of Europe, these alone still bear the name of Scythians in Europe, as Pliny indicates in Book IV of the Natural History, Chapter 13. He says the name of Scythians, though it passes over onto the Sarmatians and Germans, has not also endured in its original signification as a national name for other nations, except for the most remote members of these tribal groupings, unknown to the rest of humankind. Berosus states in addition that to these were joined all the children of Ister and Mesa [Mash son of Aram, Gen. 10. 23] from Mount Adula to Pontic Mesembria. The current names for these places attest the same: as appears in the Geography of Ptolemy, tables V and IX relating to Europe.

Mount Adula is named after Adula son of Ister, whom Moses calls Aduram [Hadoram, Vulgate Aduram, son of Joktan, Gen. 10. 27], and is a mountain overlooking Nicea, whose outlying extremities are located between Gaul and Germany, not far from Lake Constance.

In this vicinity are found the springs of the Ister, as Pliny testifies in Book IV of the Natural History, Chapter 13. It rises in Noria the yoke of Germany opposite the Gallic city of Scanta, and is also called the Danube. When it first reaches Illyricum, it is called the Ister. Through innumerable drops in its level and through six nations it flows out through its mouths into the Pontic sea. On account of this it is termed the Double Named as Ovid says too in the first book on the Pontus: The neighborhood of the banks of the Double Named Ister. It received the name Ister from the chieftain [Ister = Joktan]. Mount Adula covers an immense extent of territory along its length, and a variety of names have become attached to various localities. Across the mountain towards its upper northern reaches you will still find the Moesi from Moesa [Mash, Vulgate Mes, son of Aram], who ruled the two Moesias, the upper and the lower, which they nowadays term the Valachiae, one of the two Alta, and the other Bassa. Some write the name Mysia, but Pliny more properly in Book III of the Natural History writes it Moesia. Lower Valachia or Moesia Pontica is the location of Tyraspolis, so named from Tyras son of Japheth [Tiras son of Japheth, Gen. 10. 2], and Istropolis from the chieftain Ister [Joktan], and Tybisca from Tybus son of Ister [Tybus = Jobab son of Joktan, Gen. 10. 29]. Lower Moesia is the location of the Bosinenses and Valachi Bassi, and the Dedani from the Curete Dedan [Dedan son of Cush, Gen. 10. 7]. This region of Dedania people of a later age called Dardania by a corruption of the original name. There follow the two Bannoniae, which are popularly termed the Hungaries. We call these Pannoniae in Latin, exchanging p for b. Ptolemy writes the names of localities based on those of these sons and grandsons of Ister: the River Saus [Saus = Sheba son of Joktan, Gen. 10. 28], Salinum from Sala [Sala here may be Salah son of Arphaxad, Gen. 10. 24, see the genealogical chart in Book II of the Defloratio which merges the genealogy of Arphaxad with that of Joktan, though it might also be Sheleph son of Joktan, seemingly the Sale son of Ister mentioned infra], the Azali people [Azal = Uzal son of Joktan, Gen. 10. 27] and from his brother Albines [Albines = Abimael, son of Joktan, Gen. 10. 28] Mount Albanus. Further on this side of the range of Mount Adula reaching as far as Mesembria, you will find the Mesei Lyburni, from the chieftain Mesa [Mash son of Aram]. The colony of Iader, from Iader son of Ister [Iader = Jerah son of Joktan, Gen. 10. 26]. This side of Mount Mesa, you will find Dalmatia, from Dalmatad son of Ister [Dalmatad = Almodad son of Joktan, Gen. 10. 26], and Dicliotae from Dicla son of Ister [Diklah, Vulgate Decla, son of Joktan, Gen. 10. 27]. Salona from Sale son of Ister [presumably Sheleph son of Joktan, Gen. 10. 26, though the same name is transcribed “Saladeus” in the genealogical chart in Book II of the Defloratio]. There follows Emathia from Emathius son of Cameses [Emathius = the Hamathite son of Canaan son of Ham, Gen. 10. 18], concerning whom Lucan says at the beginning of his work: Wars were waged through the Emathian plains outnumbering the settlements. Following on from these Macedonia was named after the son of Osiris [Macedon son of Osiris], as Diodorus tells us in his first book. Epirus gets its name from the son of Ister [Ophir son of Joktan, Gen. 10. 29]. We find not only the Chaldaean name Ister, but also the Ictim [Joktan] of Moses: the promontory so named from Ictam who is Ister. There follows Thrace, as though it were Tyracia, from Tyras the son of Iapetus [Tiras son of Japheth, Gen. 10. 2], reaching as far as the city at the termination of the mountain range, which the Greeks call Mesembria, Berosus Moesemberia, Philo Mese Sephara, and Moses Sephara in the tenth chapter of Genesis [“… from Mesha, as thou goest unto Sephar, a mount of the east.” Gen. 10. 30]. The account of Comerus, along with that of the chieftains Tubal and Samotes follows in the subsequent pages. The reader should be advised that some call them Mesi who are commonly known as Bulgars. This can be proved to be false by evidence provided by the Danube. For the mouths of that river are located in Moesia, as Ptolemy and other writers declare. But the Valachi, not the Bulgars, hold the mouths of the Danube. They are therefore Moesii whom we call Valachi, and not Bulgars.”

Amongst these identifications derived from the Defloratio and Nanni’s Commentary, Turmair in Germania Illustrata (ed. Leidinger, Munich, 1908, p. 120) adds further information from unidentified, but related, medieval sources {“very old annals”), for example, in respect of the Biblical Eber, father of Joktan (Ister): Eber is identified by Turmair as the eponymus of the Roman Ebrodunum, the Austrian Stockerau near Vienna.

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Abraham’s sons and offspring followed him in a long list as lords of Stockerau, beginning with his son Achaim or Athaim. Achaim/Athaim is probably for Actaim, meaning the Defloratio’s Ictam or Ictim, that is, Joktan son of Eber, who gave his name in the form Ister to the Danube flowing by Stockerau.

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In the Bayerische Chronik (ed. Lexer, Lib. I cap. 8) these are Nimrod, Ister and Samotes, and in the same writer’s Germania Illustrata (ed. Leidinger, Munich, 1908, p. 109), Nimbrotus (“grandson of Ham”), Ister (“son of Eber son of Shelah son of Arphaxad son of Shem son of Noah”) and Dis-Samotes (“son of Japheth”). Here the forms of the latter two names are the same as in the Defloratio, viz. Ister for Joktan, and Samotes, standing for the Philonic Phenech. However, neither the Defloratio nor Nanni’s commentary make any mention of the Philonic trio at the Tower or of Philo’s Phenech.

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889.6. In the twenty-fifth year, Thuyscon succeeded in establishing the settlements of that great people the Sarmatians; and Moesa, with the sons of Ister, established the Moesians in the country which extends from Mount Adula to the southern region near the sea.

{To continue with the text of the Defloratio Berosi, omitting the following note, go to §889.7 here.}

{Note: Hazar-maveth is called “Sarmates” (Sar- = Hazar-, -mates = -maveth), and is represented as the eponymus of the Sarmatians, and as the son of Ister (Ister = the Danube), who is equated with Joktan. (Defloratio, ed. 1512, commentary fol. CXVIIIa, §888.8, above, >>, and genealogy CXIa). Evidently there was some genealogical mingling (cf. Defloratio, fol. CXVIIIa, commentary, and §888.8, above, >>, §889.6, above, >>, §889.9, below, >>, §891.15, below, >>, §891.17, below, >>, for the text) with the line of Tuisco, the “giant” son of Noah-Janus and father of Mannus, as Tuisco is described as an ancestor of “Germans and Sarmatians” (Defloratio, genealogy fol. CXb). Hazar-maveth was the nephew by marriage (“son”) of the consort of Herakles (Heraklas, Heraklim), and this consort is called Asteria or Astaroth (a form of Astarte). (§211, above, >>, §332, above, >>.) However, in an Arabic Catena the consort of Heraklim is called Salathiel daughter of Gomer, son of Japheth, son of Noah. Thus, Hazar-maveth could trace his line back to Gomer, the ancestor of the Celts and Germans. The Hyperborean Druids descended from Dis (that is, from Ister’s comrade Phinehas-Samothes, §889.2.1ff., above, >>, identified with Dis [= Hazar-maveth], the god of Death) had a particular interest in the oak-grove of Dodona in Greece, presumably on account of the cult of the oak practiced there and the birth of the god Plouto-Dis associated with it.

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889.66. In the twentieth year of Armatritis Lygur sent forth Cydnus and Eridanus with colonies, along with their brethren and descendants: and they occupied the regions in Italy reaching to the Ister.
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889.72. In the twenty-ninth year of this Belochus, the Lomnimi flourished amongst the Celtiberi, and built a great city, named Lomnimia after them. In the following year the Itali were oppressed by the tyrannical giants in the three Palensana, and summoned Osiris to their aid, since he had arrived with colonies at the springs in the vicinity of the Ister {or “at the springs in Ister’s neighborhood”}. Osiris took the whole of Italy under his control and held it for ten years, giving it his own name as a mark of triumph: and bringing the giants into subjection, he left the giant Lestrigon as king of the Janigenes, being his grandson by his son Neptunus.

Piotr-246 · Gość

Z Biblii wiemy, że Joktan miał 13 synów:

1. Almodad
2. Szelef
3. Chasarmawet
4. Jerach
5. Hadoram
6. Uzal
7. Dikla
8. Obal
9. Abimael
10. Saba
11. Ofir
12. Chawila
13. Jobab

Berossos wyjaśnia, że:

Hadoram:

Mount Adula is named after Adula son of Ister, whom Moses calls Aduram [Hadoram, Vulgate Aduram, son of Joktan, Gen. 10. 27], and is a mountain overlooking Nicea, whose outlying extremities are located between Gaul and Germany, not far from Lake Constance.

Jobab:

Lower Valachia or Moesia Pontica is the location of Tyraspolis, so named from Tyras son of Japheth [Tiras son of Japheth, Gen. 10. 2], and Istropolis from the chieftain Ister [Joktan], and Tybisca from Tybus son of Ister [Tybus = Jobab son of Joktan, Gen. 10. 29].

Saba:

There follow the two Bannoniae, which are popularly termed the Hungaries. We call these Pannoniae in Latin, exchanging p for b. Ptolemy writes the names of localities based on those of these sons and grandsons of Ister: the River Saus [Saus = Sheba son of Joktan, Gen. 10. 28],

Szelef:

Salinum from Sala [Sala here may be Salah son of Arphaxad, Gen. 10. 24, see the genealogical chart in Book II of the Defloratio which merges the genealogy of Arphaxad with that of Joktan, though it might also be Sheleph son of Joktan, seemingly the Sale son of Ister mentioned infra],

Uzal:

the Azali people [Azal = Uzal son of Joktan, Gen. 10. 27]

Abimael

and from his brother Albines [Albines = Abimael, son of Joktan, Gen. 10. 28] Mount Albanus.

Jerach:

The colony of Iader, from Iader son of Ister [Iader = Jerah son of Joktan, Gen. 10. 26].

Almodad:

This side of Mount Mesa, you will find Dalmatia, from Dalmatad son of Ister [Dalmatad = Almodad son of Joktan, Gen. 10. 26],

Dikla:

and Dicliotae from Dicla son of Ister [Diklah, Vulgate Decla, son of Joktan, Gen. 10. 27].

Ofir:

Epirus gets its name from the son of Ister [Ophir son of Joktan, Gen. 10. 29].

Piotr-246 · Gość

Ister to dawna nazwa Dunaju (Danube)
(Wikipedia)

Piotr-246 · Gość

Jectan został księciem Semitów:

"Then came the sons of Cham, and made Nembroth a prince over themselves: but the sons of Japheth made Phenech their chief: and the sons of Sem gathered together and set over them Jectan to be their prince."
(Filon (Philo) z Aleksandrii)

And Terah lived seventy years, and begat Abram, Naḥor, and Haran, and Haran begat Loṭ. Then the inhabitants of the land began to prognosticate by the planets and to become astrologers and to practise divination. They also passed their sons and daughters through fire, but Serug and his sons did not walk in their ways.
These are the generations of Noah in their lands, according to their families, and according to their tongues. After the flood they were spread over the earth according to their nations. The children of Ham then went and appointed Nimrod to be a prince and a chief over them; while the children of Japheth appointed Pinḥas to be a prince and a chief over them.
(Jerahmeel)

1948 Rok Świata - narodziny Abrama.

Gdyby Jektan został wybrany tuż po narodzeniu się Abrahama, oznaczałoby to,

1948 roku - początek panowania Joktana
1950 Rok Świata - początek panowania Sarmaty.

Co nie znaczy, że Joktan przestał panować, po prostu mógł stwierdzić, że jego synowie, jako książeta też powinni panować nad określoną częścią Semitów.

Piotr-246 · Gość

Sądzę, że Joktan mógł być wybrany na księcia będąc seniorem. Wśród młodych raczej nie wybierano. Nastąpił moment, gdy zdecydowano się wybrać książąt.

Sarmata mógł mieć 40 lat, gdy zaczął panować w 1950 roku Świata.
To by oznaczało, że Sarmata urodził się w 1910 roku Świata.

Joktan żył 2007 roku, gdy policzono lud.
Jego brat Peleg żył 239 lat.
Dlaczego Joktan miałby żyć krócej?

Joktan mógł zostać księciem w wieku np 100 lat, czyli, że urodził się w 1848 Roku Świata.
Wtedy byłby o 89 lat młodszy od brata, bo:

1757 Rok Świata - narodziny Pelega

Piotr-246 · Gość

Potomkowie Ebera i czas ich życia:

1 pokolenie: Peleg żył 239 lat, ile żył Joktan?
2 pokolenie: Reu - 239, ile żył Sarmata?
3 pokolenie: Serug - 230, ile żył Kodan?
4 pokolenie: Nachor - 148, ile żył Lech?

Piotr-246 · Gość

Anglojęzyczna Wikipedia podaje, że Heber miał 134 lata, a nie 34 lata, gdy urodził mu się syn Peleg:

"And Heber lived an hundred and thirty-four years, and begot Phaleg."

134 lata jest w Biblii po grecku (Septuaginta)

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Zmienia to postać rzeczy w poszukiwaniu daty urodzin Joktana

Peleg urodziłby się zatem w 1857 Roku Świata i Jektan podobnie.

Joktan mógł urodzić się w 1870 roku świata,
Gdy miał 35 lat, w 1905 Roku Świata mógł urodzić się Sarmata,
który objął panowanie w wieku 45 lat, w 1950 roku.

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Czas wieży Babel byłby jednak przed narodzeniem Pelega. Najpóźniej w 1830 Roku Świata.

Piotr-246 · Gość

JAK NAPRAWDĘ BRZMIAŁO IMIĘ JOKTAN?

Znane są imona: Ictan, Ictim, Ister, Jektan, Joktan, Yoctan, Yoqtan,

Piotr-246 · Gość

Berossos:

888.6. During the early part of the reign of Nymbrotus, Janus sent colonies into Egypt, under the command of Chemesenuus; into Libya and Cyrene, under the command of Triton; and into the rest of Africa, under the command of Japetus, the old Atalaa.

888.7. Into Eastern Asia he sent Ganges with some of the descendants of Comerus-Gallus, and into Arabia Felix he sent Saba, surnamed Thurifer, or incense-bearer. He gave the sovereignty over Arabia Deserta to Arabus, and over Arabia Petraea to Petreius. Cana was governor of the country from Damascus to the extremity of Palestine.

888.8. In Europe, Thuyscon reigned from the Tanais to the Rhine by command of Janus, who joined to him the sons of Ister and Moesa with all his brothers. Their rule extended from Mount Adula to the southern region which borders on the sea. Under them were Tyras, Arcadius, and Aemathius. Comerus Gallus settled in Italy; Samotes governed the Celts, and Jubal the Celtiberians.

W pierwszych latach panowania Nimroda, Noe wysyłał kolonie do Egiptu, do wschodniej Azji.
W Europie Thuyscon panował od rzeki Tanais (Don) do rzeki Rhine (Ren) na polecenie Noego, który dołączył do niego synów Istera i Moesy, ze wszystkimi ich braćmi.

Piotr-246 · Gość

"Istri" - imię Joktan w tekście łacińskim Berossosa

Piotr-246 · Gość

Z Berosossa wiemy, że

W 1813 Roku (w 25 roku panowania Nymbrotusa) Thusconowi udało się ustanowić osady wielkiego ludu Sarmacji. Oraz Moesy, z synami Istera (Joktana) ustanowił Moesian, w krainie od szczytów Adula (Alpy) do południowych obszarów blisko morza. (pol: Mezja, Mezjanie, południowy brzeg Dunaju)

CZYLI, ŻE: Joktan (Ister) w 1813 roku miał już synów.

Fragment po angielsku:

In the twenty-fifth year, Thuyscon succeeded in establishing the settlements of that great people the Sarmatians; and Moesa, with the sons of Ister, established the Moesians in the country which extends from Mount Adula to the southern region near the sea.

Piotr-246 · Gość

Ta rachuba może być prawidłowa. Gdy Eber miał 34 lata urodził się Peleg.

1723 rok adamowy - narodziny Ebera
1757 rok adamowy - narodziny Pelega

Joktan mógł urodzić się w podobnym czasie.

Piotr-246 · Gość

Z sieci:

"Joktan means the "younger son"

Piotr-246 · Gość

temat do góry